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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;The Great Western Heresy&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.jslweb.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-great-western-heresy/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on life, art, and religion</description>
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		<title>By: Rebecca Phillips</title>
		<link>http://www.jslweb.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-great-western-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-27736</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 16:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As a child and teenager I often felt guilty that I couldn&#039;t remember the &lt;em&gt;exact moment&lt;/em&gt; that I was saved! This guilt prompted several &quot;salvation experiences&quot; in my life, but left no relief from the feeling that I was missing something.  As you did, I grew up around church and strong Bible teaching.  As a teenager I thought that if all you had to do was believe in Jesus, then I&#039;d pretty much been saved my whole life.  I don&#039;t remember a &lt;em&gt;time &lt;/em&gt;that I didn&#039;t believe in Him. But this thought coupled with the constant message from the pulpit that there is a &lt;em&gt;moment in time&lt;/em&gt; that you become saved only led to confusion and nightly prayers that were nothing more than fire insurance!  When we were at Temple, there was a speaker (I don&#039;t remember his name, but he spoke from the floor instead of the pulpit and sat on a stool with a guitar) who said, &quot;If you don&#039;t want to call Him, Lord, you have no right calling Him, Savior.&quot;  While the ins and outs of theology would be a little fuzzy in that statement, it was the &lt;em&gt;awakening moment&lt;/em&gt; in my mind.  Battling through what that meant led me to the &lt;em&gt;moment &lt;/em&gt;that I got on my knees and surrendered my life to the Lord.  When people ask me &lt;em&gt;when &lt;/em&gt;I got saved, I say Sept. 3, 1998, because that&#039;s when I let go of doubt and fear and started living the abundant life promised by Christ. I was &quot;saved&quot; from the terminology of salvation that kept me in bondage.  I am convinced that the &lt;em&gt;moment &lt;/em&gt;I broke free, the Enemy changed his plot from &quot;keep her bound in doubt and fear&quot; to &quot;keep her dissatisfied and doubting God&#039;s goodness.&quot; May the lies of the Deceiver be revealed so that our lives be lived in freedom for &quot;&lt;em&gt;such a time as this&lt;/em&gt;.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a child and teenager I often felt guilty that I couldn&#8217;t remember the <em>exact moment</em> that I was saved! This guilt prompted several &#8220;salvation experiences&#8221; in my life, but left no relief from the feeling that I was missing something.  As you did, I grew up around church and strong Bible teaching.  As a teenager I thought that if all you had to do was believe in Jesus, then I&#8217;d pretty much been saved my whole life.  I don&#8217;t remember a <em>time </em>that I didn&#8217;t believe in Him. But this thought coupled with the constant message from the pulpit that there is a <em>moment in time</em> that you become saved only led to confusion and nightly prayers that were nothing more than fire insurance!  When we were at Temple, there was a speaker (I don&#8217;t remember his name, but he spoke from the floor instead of the pulpit and sat on a stool with a guitar) who said, &#8220;If you don&#8217;t want to call Him, Lord, you have no right calling Him, Savior.&#8221;  While the ins and outs of theology would be a little fuzzy in that statement, it was the <em>awakening moment</em> in my mind.  Battling through what that meant led me to the <em>moment </em>that I got on my knees and surrendered my life to the Lord.  When people ask me <em>when </em>I got saved, I say Sept. 3, 1998, because that&#8217;s when I let go of doubt and fear and started living the abundant life promised by Christ. I was &#8220;saved&#8221; from the terminology of salvation that kept me in bondage.  I am convinced that the <em>moment </em>I broke free, the Enemy changed his plot from &#8220;keep her bound in doubt and fear&#8221; to &#8220;keep her dissatisfied and doubting God&#8217;s goodness.&#8221; May the lies of the Deceiver be revealed so that our lives be lived in freedom for &#8220;<em>such a time as this</em>.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.jslweb.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-great-western-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-24908</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jslweb.com/blog/?p=602#comment-24908</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Richard.  And yes, Faith Lamb is my mother.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Richard.  And yes, Faith Lamb is my mother.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.jslweb.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-great-western-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-24906</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jslweb.com/blog/?p=602#comment-24906</guid>
		<description>Stephen, Matthew Paul Turner referred to you as a &quot;fellow fundamentalism survivor&quot; or something similar.  I am the same--I graduated from Tennessee Temple High School, college, AND seminary!  You mention your family relation to John R. Rice.  So, you are related to Faith Lamb (who taught at Temple when I was there)?  BTW, great post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, Matthew Paul Turner referred to you as a &#8220;fellow fundamentalism survivor&#8221; or something similar.  I am the same&#8211;I graduated from Tennessee Temple High School, college, AND seminary!  You mention your family relation to John R. Rice.  So, you are related to Faith Lamb (who taught at Temple when I was there)?  BTW, great post.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Cowan</title>
		<link>http://www.jslweb.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-great-western-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-24719</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Cowan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 03:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jslweb.com/blog/?p=602#comment-24719</guid>
		<description>Good post, Stephen.  I particularly like Neibuhr&#039;s words, &quot;I wonder whether there is any way of being potent oratorically without over-simplifying truth. Or must power always be bought at the expense of truth?&quot;  

I reread a sermon that I wrote in 2005 during seminary... funny how trite some of my imperatives and &quot;guidance&quot; seem now that I look back on them from a few years later.  Maybe trite isn&#039;t the right word... forced? perfunctory? more rhetorical than genuine?

Regardless, it does seem that in the context of a sermon, or even moreso in the midst of an argument between equal parties, the whole truth is often sacrificed for the sake of littler, less-significant truths which can be defended much more easily... hence wining the argument takes precedent over remembering the whole story as it actually was... potency replaces comprehensiveness... and &quot;connecting&quot; with your listeners from the pulpit over something true (but small) happens in place of communicating a complicated, but honest, statement of the depths of the matter.

The sermon I found was on the demon-possessed man that was chained up in the cave.  I, of course, spoke to Jesus&#039; ability to rescue, to heal, to redeem, to restore.  All truths.  Much more difficult to speak with potency on the reality of the invisible, spiritual dimensions (Satan, demons) that Jesus confronted... and whether or not He continues to defend and deliver us from those forces now... and how badly that starts to scare me once I think about it for more than a few seconds.

Yeah, if I&#039;m anything like the evangelists Neibuhr depicts, I&#039;ll probably just stick with something simpler... and  turn up the volume of my voice a bit to compensate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, Stephen.  I particularly like Neibuhr&#8217;s words, &#8220;I wonder whether there is any way of being potent oratorically without over-simplifying truth. Or must power always be bought at the expense of truth?&#8221;  </p>
<p>I reread a sermon that I wrote in 2005 during seminary&#8230; funny how trite some of my imperatives and &#8220;guidance&#8221; seem now that I look back on them from a few years later.  Maybe trite isn&#8217;t the right word&#8230; forced? perfunctory? more rhetorical than genuine?</p>
<p>Regardless, it does seem that in the context of a sermon, or even moreso in the midst of an argument between equal parties, the whole truth is often sacrificed for the sake of littler, less-significant truths which can be defended much more easily&#8230; hence wining the argument takes precedent over remembering the whole story as it actually was&#8230; potency replaces comprehensiveness&#8230; and &#8220;connecting&#8221; with your listeners from the pulpit over something true (but small) happens in place of communicating a complicated, but honest, statement of the depths of the matter.</p>
<p>The sermon I found was on the demon-possessed man that was chained up in the cave.  I, of course, spoke to Jesus&#8217; ability to rescue, to heal, to redeem, to restore.  All truths.  Much more difficult to speak with potency on the reality of the invisible, spiritual dimensions (Satan, demons) that Jesus confronted&#8230; and whether or not He continues to defend and deliver us from those forces now&#8230; and how badly that starts to scare me once I think about it for more than a few seconds.</p>
<p>Yeah, if I&#8217;m anything like the evangelists Neibuhr depicts, I&#8217;ll probably just stick with something simpler&#8230; and  turn up the volume of my voice a bit to compensate.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Ward</title>
		<link>http://www.jslweb.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-great-western-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-24212</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 06:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jslweb.com/blog/?p=602#comment-24212</guid>
		<description>Love it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love it.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.jslweb.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-great-western-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-24207</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jslweb.com/blog/?p=602#comment-24207</guid>
		<description>Exactly, Seth, exactly.  And I just came across a web comic posted on Tuesday that sums up that point brilliantly in just two panels: http://www.nakedpastor.com/archives/4001</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly, Seth, exactly.  And I just came across a web comic posted on Tuesday that sums up that point brilliantly in just two panels: <a href="http://www.nakedpastor.com/archives/4001" rel="nofollow">http://www.nakedpastor.com/archives/4001</a></p>
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		<title>By: Seth Ward</title>
		<link>http://www.jslweb.com/blog/2009/10/13/the-great-western-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-24195</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 04:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jslweb.com/blog/?p=602#comment-24195</guid>
		<description>Great post, my friend.  I feel at times that formula has replaced faith in protestantism.  And faith does not come at a &quot;point in time&quot; and neither does salvation.  For those that argue for that point... which point?  Time is a tricky thing.  A single second can be subdivided infinitely until an entire universe of stasis is opened. If I&#039;m saved traveling close to the speed of light, my moment of salvation will take about 100,000 years to those left on earth. 

A God outside of time is not dependent upon time to save your soul.  It is beyond all of the nonsense of formulas or metaphors and it is beyond a personal conversion experience and even beyond the scope that our imagination conjures when we try to imagine the whole church washed in the blood, though a much more accurate picture than &quot;I said this now, I&#039;m saved.&quot; Confess and believe are the prerequisites but no one knows or can see the Lamb&#039;s book of life or the infinite mystery that unfolds behind every verse that attempts to describe it, however imperfect words are.   Therefore, salvation is worked out, hoped for, believed in, but not bartered.  &quot;I&#039;ll do this if you&#039;ll do that.&quot;   It is worked out with fear and trembling -  and its worked out together or not at all. &quot;&#039;But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, And to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel&#039; &quot; It is clear that heaven won&#039;t be empty waiting for me as if Jesus only died for me.  And praise God for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, my friend.  I feel at times that formula has replaced faith in protestantism.  And faith does not come at a &#8220;point in time&#8221; and neither does salvation.  For those that argue for that point&#8230; which point?  Time is a tricky thing.  A single second can be subdivided infinitely until an entire universe of stasis is opened. If I&#8217;m saved traveling close to the speed of light, my moment of salvation will take about 100,000 years to those left on earth. </p>
<p>A God outside of time is not dependent upon time to save your soul.  It is beyond all of the nonsense of formulas or metaphors and it is beyond a personal conversion experience and even beyond the scope that our imagination conjures when we try to imagine the whole church washed in the blood, though a much more accurate picture than &#8220;I said this now, I&#8217;m saved.&#8221; Confess and believe are the prerequisites but no one knows or can see the Lamb&#8217;s book of life or the infinite mystery that unfolds behind every verse that attempts to describe it, however imperfect words are.   Therefore, salvation is worked out, hoped for, believed in, but not bartered.  &#8220;I&#8217;ll do this if you&#8217;ll do that.&#8221;   It is worked out with fear and trembling &#8211;  and its worked out together or not at all. &#8220;&#8216;But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, And to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel&#8217; &#8221; It is clear that heaven won&#8217;t be empty waiting for me as if Jesus only died for me.  And praise God for that.</p>
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